Based on the interview between Mohammad Nabil and Dr. Linh Phung on November 29, 2024. This script was cleaned up by AI, which took the liberty of slightly changing some language of the interview. Please watch the original interview for what was exactly said: https://youtu.be/dwAvd8JH6Xc
Mohammad Nabil: Okay, welcome to the podcast that takes a holistic view on education. It's not about another 10 grammar activities for your classroom. We're here to create a space for cultural exchange, discuss well-being, continuous professional development, business perspectives, and challenges in education. We're here to highlight successful stories of prominent education figures. Join the ride with me, Mohammad, an English language teacher and teacher trainer, and also the founder of Educast International Conferences.
Today, I have a wonderful guest: Dr. Linh Phung, who is a language educator, researcher, and creator with a track record of directing successful educational programs and developing impactful technology applications and language learning materials. She is the founder of the Eduling Speak app, which offers specialized English courses based on communicative tasks and games. As an author, she has published four language learning books and three children's books. As a researcher, she has had her work published in high-impact journals. Her professional experience also involves serving as an English Language Specialist with the U.S. Department of State in 2023, working at Shorelight as a Senior Research Analyst, and being Chief Learning Officer at Pangea Chat.
Did I pronounce it correctly?
Dr. Linh Phung: Yes, Pangea Chat.
Mohammad Nabil: Yeah, Pangea Chat. So, it's a big honor to have you here with me today, Dr. Linh.
Dr. Linh Phung: Thank you so much, Mohammad. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I'm calling to you on Black Friday, as we call it here in the U.S., the Friday after Thanksgiving. This is when people go shopping because there are a lot of sales and discounts. But I am here talking to you, and it's my pleasure. Thank you so much, Mohammad, for hosting me.
Mohammad Nabil: Thank you! The pleasure is always mine. Actually, we call it White Friday here in the Arab world. I’m joining you from Saudi Arabia, and I think it’s 5 p.m. here. What time is it where you are?
Dr. Linh Phung: It is 9 a.m. here. It’s a really good time; I feel the best in the morning.
Mohammad Nabil: That’s right. Great! So, are you ready for my questions?
Dr. Linh Phung: Yes, I am.
Mohammad Nabil: That’s wonderful. Again, thank you for joining me today and for being here with me. Let me start with the first question: What sparked your initial interest in English language teaching?
Dr. Linh Phung: This is an interesting question. I often tell a long story of how I became interested in English language learning. I lived in the countryside in Vietnam when I was small, and education there was not as good as in the city. When I was in grade six, I was sent to live with my aunt in a nearby city so I could have a better education. I was selected to specialize in English, so I started learning English when I was 11 years old.
At first, it was really difficult because it was like being a kid writing strange words and letters. But I was really motivated because, for us, education was the only way to advance in life. I was determined to be the number one student in the class. After I felt successful in learning English, I continued to pursue it. I went on to do a bachelor’s degree in English education. After that, I taught at the university for a few years after graduation and then came to the U.S. to do my master’s. I’ll tell you more about my educational journey in the next question.
Mohammad Nabil: That sounds amazing, especially considering that you come from a small village in Vietnam and have reached fame and success in the field of teaching English to speakers of other languages. This leads us to my second question: Could you walk us through your academic journey from your undergraduate studies to your PhD?
Dr. Linh Phung: Thank you for the question. I specialized in teaching English during my undergraduate degree at Vietnam National University in Hanoi. After that, I taught at the university for a few years, but I always wanted to go to an English-speaking country to pursue a higher degree. I applied to a few universities in the U.S. I just told a colleague I met at a conference that I applied to Penn State and Michigan State because they were among the top 50 in terms of ranking. I was admitted to both universities, but Penn State gave me a scholarship, so I came to do my master’s degree in Teaching English as a Second Language.
After two years of studying there, I got my degree and went back to Vietnam to resume my position at the university. Then I came back to the U.S. to get married because I met my husband while I was at Penn State. From then on, I got a full-time job as the coordinator and then director of the English language program at Chatham University in Pittsburgh. I worked there for 12 years, and during those years, I pursued my doctorate in Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages. Now I’m not at Chatham University anymore, but that’s my journey from my undergraduate degree to my doctorate and to my professional life here in the U.S.
Mohammad Nabil: That’s a lot! It sounds like a gift—you meeting your husband in the place where you moved to study, got your scholarship, and then found a full-time job. That’s really amazing. Let’s move to the third question: How did you first become interested in the potential of mobile technology for language learning?
Dr. Linh Phung: Yes, that’s one of my passions. I have always been interested in technology. I remember when I was in my master’s program, we learned a lot about using technology for interaction. When I teach, I often look for opportunities for students to have more comprehensible input, interact with each other meaningfully, and produce language meaningfully.
My interest in technology stems from my commitment to second language acquisition and facilitating the best conditions for language learning. I did a dissertation on task-based language teaching, then started my own organization called Eduling. I noticed that students in other countries don’t have as many opportunities to use English authentically for communication. Since task-based approaches engage students in achieving objectives through tasks, I wanted to create materials for students to use easily to communicate with each other through an online platform using their phones. That’s when I became more intensely interested in mobile-assisted language learning.
Mohammad Nabil: That’s very relevant to why I created Educast. I thought about the needs of other teachers where I come from and decided to do something for them. It’s the same idea as your Eduling platform—to help learners who don’t have enough opportunities to develop their language skills.
Dr. Linh Phung: Exactly.
Mohammad Nabil: Great. Let’s move to our fourth question. What specific areas of mobile-assisted language learning have you focused on in your research and development?
Dr. Linh Phung: My passion has always been to create opportunities for students to interact and talk with each other more. Even at Chatham University, I created conversation hours for students and paired them with American students. When I thought of creating technologies for language learning, I wanted to provide similar opportunities for students, even outside the U.S.
The idea is to connect learners in pairs while performing tasks together. My research has focused on engagement in task performance—how students engage in producing language during tasks. My dissertation and subsequent studies examined the impact of choice on learner engagement. My technology development stems from my research interest and understanding that language learning is a social process where interaction plays a key role.
Mohammad Nabil: That’s great! It’s wonderful that you always keep the needs of learners in mind and work hard to respond to them. This is something I always share with others: the most important thing for educators is to address learners' needs. Let’s move to the next question: Can you describe some innovative approaches to mobile-assisted language learning that you have developed or explored?
Dr. Linh Phung: I’ve already talked a lot about Eduling Speak, and I still think it’s quite innovative. There are tasks for students to perform in pairs, and now I’ve also developed tasks they can complete individually. In task-based language teaching, there are not just communicative tasks for pairs or groups, but also input-based tasks. Students need to process meaning by listening or reading and then do something with that input.
For example, in a pronunciation task, students listen to a story or a picture description and then move words to the correct spots. These words highlight differences between minimal pairs—words that differ by only one sound. This approach helps teach pronunciation effectively.
Task-based language teaching offers many variables and ways of designing tasks to encourage communication and meaning processing, which gives great flexibility in creating materials. Another innovative approach I’m working on involves using AI. Students can now chat with AI, but without clear tasks, they might not know what to say or get bored. So, I’m designing small tasks for students to complete with AI, ensuring meaningful interaction.
I’m also the Chief Learning Officer at Pangea Chat. This platform allows students to text in their target language, even as beginners, using AI tools. I’ve been learning Spanish this way and chatting with the bot about relevant topics, like Thanksgiving dishes. It makes learning more satisfying because you talk about what interests you at the moment.
Mohammad Nabil: Happy Thanksgiving, by the way! Enjoy the celebrations. These approaches are wonderful. I really like how you focus on helping learners understand meaning rather than just testing their skills.
Dr. Linh Phung: Thank you! Yes, understanding and processing meaning is crucial in language learning.
Mohammad Nabil: Let’s move to the next question: What are some of the biggest challenges in implementing mobile learning in language education, and how have you addressed them in your products or platforms?
Dr. Linh Phung: That’s a good question because there are so many challenges. One of the biggest is adoption. The value of any new technology depends on how teachers and learners use it. I may create these wonderful products, but if no one uses them or provides feedback, their value diminishes. Convincing people to use and adopt new tools is challenging, especially since I’m more of an academic and creator than a marketer.
Another challenge is that people often expect to use technology for free. They might be willing to pay for expensive textbooks but hesitate to invest in educational apps. Many don’t realize the significant investment in time, money, and intellectual property that goes into developing these tools.
That said, I love creating and sharing my products. Getting feedback helps improve them, and seeing students benefit from them makes it all worthwhile.
Mohammad Nabil: It’s definitely hard to change mindsets about paying for technology. But it’s important for people to see the value in tools that can genuinely help them develop their language skills. Eduling, for instance, offers courses not just for learners but for teachers too.
Dr. Linh Phung: Exactly. I don’t mind the challenges because creating is my passion. Developing new materials and tools gives me something to share with teachers and learners. It’s rewarding to see how they can benefit from what I’ve created.
Mohammad Nabil: That’s amazing. Speaking of sharing, we’ve talked about the Educast conference. You’re not just a speaker and sponsor, but you’re also offering premium access to Eduling for attendees. That’s an incredible opportunity for teachers and learners.
Dr. Linh Phung: Yes, I’m excited to support the conference and offer premium access to Eduling Speak. I look forward to hearing feedback from teachers and learners. Collaborating with teachers helps me understand their needs and improve my products. I enjoy connecting with people and learning from them.
Mohammad Nabil: Collaboration is key. Have you collaborated with other researchers or practitioners in mobile-assisted language learning?
Dr. Linh Phung: Yes, I’ve collaborated with many teachers and researchers. For Eduling Speak, for example, I’ve asked colleagues and students to record short speeches. These recordings are featured on the app, especially for IELTS part two practice. This two-minute speech format is practical in real-life situations, like job interviews or introductions.
I’ve also conducted research projects with colleagues, such as Dr. Bradford Lee in Japan. We developed a pronunciation task using the app and compared different conditions for task performance. There are many more collaborations I could mention, but these are a few examples.
Mohammad Nabil: That’s great! Collaboration often leads to success. Looking ahead, what do you see as the future of mobile-assisted language learning? Are there any trends or technologies you’re excited about?
Dr. Linh Phung: Eduling also offers courses for teachers, like “Developing Communicative Tasks,” which is a great resource for learning about task-based language teaching. As for future trends, I think there’s a growing emphasis on microlearning and upskilling. With technology evolving rapidly, people need to continuously update their skills. Mobile technology offers the convenience and flexibility to do this.
When I developed Eduling Speak, I focused on mobile because everyone has a phone. It makes learning more accessible and convenient. We’re also seeing more AI integration, which opens up new possibilities for interactive learning.
Mohammad Nabil: People are glued to their phones, so why not use them for learning? It’s convenient and accessible. So, I think you're proud of this product, and it’s really obvious when you talk about it. You feel the passion and energy to encourage people to take steps forward, to help themselves and others by offering something that fits everyone around the world. It fits everyone, so you don’t have to use your laptop or computer, just your cell phone whenever you want. Talking about things you’re proud of, what are you most proud of in your career so far?
Dr. Linh Phung: Okay, that's a difficult question. I have this inclination to "just do it." When I have an idea, sometimes I just do it. Looking back, I was at Chatham University for 12 years, and now I feel like I stayed too long. Sometimes in the U.S., if you want new experiences, you have to move to a new job. Now I’m in a new place, doing more technology development, working on two products: Eduling Speak and Pangea Chat. Pangea Chat is funded by the National Science Foundation, so we have good funding to develop it further. It’s really exciting.
I feel proud that I can carve out my own path and don’t feel stuck in one thing. If I lose a job or something doesn’t work out, I’m confident I have ideas to implement and more things to do. I feel free. I read a book recently about work, and it said people get satisfaction from creativity and control. I think I have both—I create things I want to create and have flexibility and control over where I want to go. So, I guess that’s what I’m proud of.
Mohammad Nabil: You must be proud of a lot of things. This journey is really successful and inspirational. Moving from one country to another and building everything from scratch is difficult and involves a lot of lessons. What important lessons have you learned throughout your career?
Dr. Linh Phung: I think I was always driven by the right thing for me. I’m not driven by status or titles. I don’t care much about money or the next position. When I moved from Vietnam to the U.S., it was because I wanted to learn more in an English-speaking country. I stayed in the U.S. not because I wanted U.S. citizenship. It just happened that way. Whatever the situation, I try my best. I work hard, work with passion, and work with people. As a leader, as you know I have taken a few leadership roles with TESOL International Association, even in volunteer positions, I take responsibility and get things done. I think having the right attitude and values and sticking with them is the most important lesson.
Mohammad Nabil: That’s really impressive. People should go for their dreams, develop decision-making skills, and work hard. They should also work with others because some things don’t work if you’re alone. We should always seek help and work responsibly. Let’s not forget about novice teachers and beginner teachers. What advice would you give them, and also to seasoned ones, about dealing with fast developments in technology and AI?
Dr. Linh Phung: I was a novice teacher a long time ago, and back then, the technology I had to learn was PowerPoint! I think teachers should focus on principles of second language learning and acquisition. These are more important than the tools or technology you use. Students need comprehensible and engaging input, social interaction opportunities, and meaningful language production. When you have the right principles, you can find the tools that enhance these conditions. Technology should save time. For example, a learning management system makes it easier to organize homework. Technology can also extend learning beyond the classroom. There’s research showing that entertainment technology, like YouTube or movies, has more impact on language learning than educational technology. So, think of technology as a tool to enhance learning and make your teaching more efficient.
Mohammad Nabil: That’s a lot of great advice—giving students comprehensible input, creating social interaction opportunities, and using technology to support teaching, not replace it. Teaching is demanding, and technology helps save time.
Dr. Linh, from a small village in Vietnam to a prominent figure in ELT, your journey is so inspiring. You’ve moved countries, earned a scholarship, completed a PhD, and created successful platforms. You’ve shown that working hard, staying motivated, and collaborating with others can lead to amazing achievements.
Dr. Linh Phung: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Mohammad Nabil: Before we end, let’s remind everyone about the gifts for the upcoming conference. You’re not only a speaker and sponsor but also a moderator, and you’re offering something special for attendees.
Dr. Linh Phung: Yes! I’m excited to give a speech on mobile-assisted language learning and support the conference. I’m offering premium access to Eduling Speak for attendees. I’d love for teachers to try the app and give me feedback.
I always enjoy connecting with teachers and understanding their needs. It helps me improve my products and learn from them. I also share my learning journey daily on Facebook, so feel free to follow me there. I’m looking forward to meeting everyone at the Educast conference in February!
Mohammad Nabil: Thank you so much for joining me today, Dr. Linh. It was a pleasure and an honor. Your story will inspire educators worldwide. Don’t forget, everyone, the Educast conference is on the 7th and 8th of February 2025. It’s about AI, educational technology, and advancements in ELT. It’s free, with a great lineup of speakers like Dr. Linh Phung, Dr. Ron Morrain, Scott Thornbury, Dr. Christine Coombe, and many more. You’ll get a certificate of participation. Check the website link in the comments to register.
Dr. Linh Phung: Thank you so much. See you next year!
Mohammad Nabil: See you. Bye!
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